Problems with the Trinity: The Trinity is such a widely accepted doctrine that it is strange to see it challenged. Does it really stand the test of scripture? This doctrine teaches that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same entity – until they aren’t. It can get really confusing and, it may come as a shock, but the first-century believers did not hold to this doctrine at all.
The Scriptures
The volume of scriptures indicating that Jesus and God are separate beings is overwhelming. The most fundamental problem with the doctrine of the Trinity is its conclusion. The result is that Jesus did not actually die and was not actually resurrected by the Father. If one is to believe that Jesus was immortal at the time of His crucifixion, then He sacrificed nothing, and his death and resurrection were merely an act or a facade. If you believe that Jesus voluntarily left the Father, voluntarily became man, and voluntarily gave His life – 100% of it, died for our sins, stayed dead for around 72 hours, and was resurrected by the Father, then you don’t believe in the Trinity.
Verses Indicating Problems with the Trinity
Consider the following verses:
“Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also who is raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.” (Romans 8:34)
Christ is at the right hand of God and intercedes for us. One cannot sit at the right hand of oneself. Christ intercedes which means He is between us and the Father, advocating for us. One cannot be between us and the Father and be the Father at the same time.
“For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus…” (1 Timothy 2:5)
Jesus is the Mediator between God and man.
“And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.” (Matthew 26:39)
Jesus prays to the Father. He does not pray to Himself; apparently, the Father’s will is different from the Son’s will. They aren’t the same. The Spirit isn’t even mentioned.
Problems with the Trinity
The problems with the Trinity are overwhelming. The teachings below address the problems by showing what is really known about the relationship between God and Jesus. The Old Testament prophesies about the Messiah are explained, which show a clear distinction between God and Jesus. These prophesies also show what the first century Jews were expecting in the Christ or Messiah. Then I chronicle what the Apostles believed on this topic, which is what they intended for all of us to believe until Yeshua, aka Jesus, returns.
Teachings on this Topic
Stop Rejecting the Messiah! When you call Jesus “God” or Yeshua “Yahweh”, you are rejecting Him as the Messiah.
A comprehensive refutation of the Trinity and what is really required for salvation is at Arguments Against the Trinity.
For a longer and very easy-to-understand message click here God is not a Trinity – First Century Christianity
Yeshua Our Mediator – First Century Christianity – The most important information in the history of mankind.
A message about the most important doctrine of the entire bible, Yeshua being our Mediator, is here The Mediator and the End of Days – First Century Christianity
In our study of John 1, we explain John 1: 1-5 in a way that harmonizes with all of scripture while also explaining the origin of the concept of “the Word” as a Mediating power. https://firstcenturychristianity.net/the-gospel-of-john/
Great post!
look at the hebrew it is plural
I very much agree! Well written
Thanks!!!
“The biggest and most fundamental problem with the doctrine of the Trinity is that its ultimate conclusion is that Jesus did not actually die and was not actually resurrected by the Father…”
Your statement above is not a universal belief amongst those who follow the Trinity Doctrine. Therefore it is not an accurate statement.
As one who grew up Catholic, then was a practicing Jehovah’s Witness for over eighteen years, I do speak from a position of knowledge, and not opinion.
Putting that aside, one has to understand why all of this came about. Now, this is where I will offer up my “opinion” based on my own studies. Christians of that time where becoming evermore numerous, though most at that time were still mainly of Judean background, and this alone was a problem. And as we do act like sheep (a need to follow) many started asking questions of the elders, i.e. those in authority, and of the learned about such things.
People would read scripture where it states that, “all things were created through Him…” (John 1:30, Col 1:16) Hmmm? “But I thought The Almighty, Yahweh created me”? Do you see the problem arising? Well, yes God created you but through “God’s only begotten Son”. This dual creator theme starts to leak into all sorts of issues, with these used to be Monotheistic Christians wanting answers to this new dilemma.
It’s very understandable how this doctrine came about.
How then does the Church defend its doctrine that God is both One and yet Three? First of all, it is the Church’s teaching that there is only one God because there is only one Father. In the Bible the term “God” with very few exceptions is used primarily as a name for the Father. Thus, the Son is the “Son of God,” and the Spirit is the “Spirit of God.” The Son is born from the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father—both in the same timeless and eternal action of the Father’s own being.
In this view, the Son and the Spirit are both one with God and in no way separated from Him. Thus, the Divine Unity consists of the Father, with His Son and His Spirit distinct from Himself and yet perfectly united together in Him.
Source: http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity/the-holy-trinity-revealed
Now, don’t get me wrong! I am not one who believes that the trinity doctrine is an article of faith for Christians to be accept by our Lord, and our God. Nonetheless, I also do not believe that those who believe in the trinity doctrine are not Christians.
In my opinion, “The Great Apostasy” (to a greater and lesser degree) that the Apostle Paul spoke of takes in all of (organized) Christendom, bar none. Including, and not limited to the Watchtower Organization, all Adventist groups, and everything else.
Hi, thanks for the comment! I just fixed the link to the longer pdf file up above explaining how the Trinity is actually impossible. I hope you will check it out! May Yahweh bless you!
This website is about first century Christianity. For discussions about other religions, please fill out the contact form on the about page.
I agree with you a 100% Chris. It is impossible for Jesus to be Yahwey. In the simplist way to prove this is the Name of God. Consider
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Gods (Yahweys) name forever is The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. Ok now lets go to the new testament
ACTS 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Jesus is not the God of the old testament he is the SON of the GOD of the old testament. Soooooooooooooooo Simple. Ok now you go to the other scriptures and study from there on that basic truth. Here are some others.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he(God) hath declared him.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. So as you can see no one has seen God at anytime, or heard his voice, nor seen his shape. (JESUS IS NOT GOD. If it is god you have seen god.) Jesus is another being. He’s is of the exact same mind as his father, thus they are one. Same essence.
But lets keep going. Lets get even more witnesses.
LK 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
LK 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
God increase in wisdom and stature with himself and man? I mean that is so ridiculous it wouldnt even merit a response.
JN 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. A blantant lie if this is God Almighty.
JN 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If God says this he is a blantant liar.
JN 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
JN 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. There are two. God and his son. Two witnesses. Couldn’t get any plainer.
JN 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. God does not give himself commandments.
JN 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. Uh oh another lie God says that the words you hear are not his. OOPS.
ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by(Through,(Check Greek-the word in greek “dia” which means through.) him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know(God did all the works through Jesus) His Son!! Makes perfect sense when Christ says he can do nothing of himself. Very Plain!!!
ACTS 2:23 Him(Jesus), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
ACTS 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he(Jesus) should be holden of it. (Sorry God cannot die. That would make Jesus’s resurrection false and a lie with no meaning at all.
I mean these are just a few, I could go forever but you are right Chris it is IMPOSSIBLE for Yashua to be Yahwey.
Yeah, Marc, almost every page of the Gospels makes the Trinity impossible. The entire foundation of the faith is that Messiah paid the price for our sins by dying an innocent death and being resurrected by the Father. The Father didn’t die and simply cannot die. Another interesting place to look is t all the salutations (beginnings) of the letters. Not one mentions the Spirit at all and every one of them mentions Yeshua and the Father as separate beings.
YES Chris……Dead ON!! Not once in the entire new testament writings is he mentioned at the greetings or beginnings. Truth, Truth, Truth!!!! Gods Holy Spirit eminates solely from him or out of him. That poor holy spirit guy he just doesnt get any respect at all does he. lol. Three Co-existant, eternal and equal? NOT. God Bless you Chris for accepting the truth in scripture that Yashua is truly the Son Of God. May God bless you seven fold for preaching and believing this truth.
Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. Geee didnt Paul have it right? lol
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (Uhhhh wouldnt you think it would be a bad thing to call God a liar saying it wasnt really his son but it was him. Do people really understand the danger of believing or thinking that way? IS this blaspheming against God? Penalty for this belief? Luke 12:10? Should scare the heck out them dont you think?)
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Were talking about eternal life and death people!
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
What everyone here forgets, or doesn’t seem to understand, or know is that God said he was the SAVIOR to “all ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 45:22) God tells Moses, “I Am.” (Exodus 3:14) Jesus declares that “Before Abraham was, I Am.” (John 8:58) The Bible tells us there’s only one Father. (Malachi 2:10) Then it tells us that Jesus is the Everlasting Father. (Isaiah 9:6) If Jesus is not the Father, than why is he called the Everlasting Father? If God alone the savior of the world, how can Jesus be the savior? (Isaiah 43:11) And if Yahaweh (יהוה) is the “I Am,” how can Jesus claim to be the “I Am” unless he is God? Jesus (Yeshua) is not just the “Son of God,” he is “God with us.” Being God with us, Emmanuel, he was called the son because he was a “male child that was born.” The Spirit that brought about the inception of Jesus was God. In Revelation chapter 5, John said he saw the LAMB sitting on the THRONE of God. If Jesus is not the ONE and ONLY GOD, than there are two of them, and there’s only one. The confusion comes in because, as a man, he took on the form of a servant. (Philippians 2:7) And as a servant, the terms used for him relate to the role as a man who was under the authority of God in heaven. What people don’t understand is that God can be everywhere at the same time and still be God in heaven. If Jesus wasn’t God, he shouldn’t have been worshiped (in Matthew 28:9,17) and shouldn’t have allowed Thomas to call him Lord God. (John 20:28) And, by the way, if Jesus were not God, he shouldn’t be called the first, last, beginning, ending, alpha and omega since God is the first and the last. (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 1:7-11, 17-18) I’m not advocating or promoting a “trinity” of three “persons.” I’m declaring that Jesus is the fullness of the godhead (Divinity) and that he is God all by himself. (Colossians 2;9,10) God bless you to hear and receive the truth.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, it looks like you put some time into that!
I hope you took the time to watch our video as many of those questions are answered there.
The Septuagint (LXX) was written ~300 years before the coming of the Messiah and has a totally different read on Isaiah 9:6. Here is the Brenton rendering of the LXX for Isaiah 9:6:
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this. (Isa 9:6-7 Brenton)
For those who don’t know, the LXX is the most cited version of the Torah in the New Testament. If you find a verse in the NT that is a direct citation of the OT, you will find the Brenton wording to match much more closely than those rendered from the Masoretic Text.
“God with us” or Emmanuel simply means “God is with us” as in the context “if God be for us, who can be against us”. It is the same sense that God was with the Hebrews at Sinai.
Yeshua allowed Himself to be called the Messiah and that is what the word Christ really means. This word has a meaning and it is “God’s anointed”. God did not anoint Himself but He sent His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him (as the Son) will have everlasting life. This is the single most important thing for people to believe. If you do not believe God has a Son, or if your doctrine can produce an idea that God is a liar and only pretended to be his own Son, then you might want to go back to the drawing board.
I would like to add to this the following scriptures which proves that the Lord Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
This establishes the “Eternal Sonship” of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that He was One with the Father, as He desires “that they may be one as we are one”: Joh_17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
And this is all accomplished by and through the Unction of the Holy Spirit gifted to us by God the Father.
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
(Joh 1:18)
How many people saw Yeshua?
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Jesus said, when you see me you have seen the Father:
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Greetings FCC Admin,
With this response, are you denying Christ’s Eternal Sonship? This answer is not so clear to me.
Thank you……Lord bless you.
It’s interesting that the chapter everybody uses to declare Yeshua to be God includes the line that nobody has ever seen God. What’s not clear to me is which sentences of the book of John we are to believe and which we are not.
In your other comment, you include the clear verse that Yeshua is the firstborn of all creation. Do you agree with Paul that Yeshua is a created being?
Greetings,
This is to reply to your last comment to me which you asked; “It’s interesting that the chapter everybody uses to declare Yeshua to be God includes the line that nobody has ever seen God. What’s not clear to me is which sentences of the book of John we are to believe and which we are not?
My answer is “Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jesus was born of the Father, so He has seen God. The Holy spirit impregnated Mary with the Messiah which was to come,that it is why it said she was not touched by man, so God through the Holy Spirit brought forth the Word which was made flesh. Jesus Christ is the Living Word.
Does this clarify it for you?
This should also give answer to your other question in that reply to me, “Do you agree with Paul that Yeshua is a created being?”
Thank you
Lord bless you
What a powerful discussion! It is great to see a biblical interpretation of Christ that is well articulated. The comments by pastor Hunter illustrate the great difficulty we have in explaining the correct role/position of Jesus. Thank You for sharing the history/development of our understanding of Isaiah 9:6 it is very enlightening. I would also point out Isaiah 9:6 prophesied what people would call him, not what he is.
My understanding of Jesus originates with Daniel 7:13-14.
(NIV) “13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Jesus is clearly the son of man and he was given authority by God. He did not always have it.
My point is that to understand the new testament we need to view it through the lens of the old testament. The fathers of the catholic church that developed trinitarian doctrine (Athanasius of Alexandria – it is interesting how he became a bishop) were steeped in Greek and Roman culture not Hebrew culture. When one among them at the council of Nicea dared to disagree with them and their interpretation (Arius) he was pressured and threatened with death. (it should be clear to all from a little church history that trinitarian doctrine has had trouble from the start – surviving only due to political pressure)
The big question we need to ask ourselves is: WHAT IS THE UTILITY OF TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE FOR SATAN’S PURPOSES?
My Guess: When the antichrist comes claiming to be Jesus, Satan wants him to be viewed as God so that people will have no problem when his actions depart from biblical teaching, also giving him “cart blanche” to dictate new rules or “new scripture”. (sounds a lot like Mohammed and allah)
Trinitarian doctrine prepares people for this, making them docile sheep in the end times, ready to be led to the slaughter.
Excellent! Satan’s plan for the Early Church was,
1. I must get into the church
2. So I can be worshipped as God
3. But I must adjust their Monotheism to allow for plurality of divine beings
4. To do this I will inspire an adjustment in language, “persons” instead of “beings”
5. Humans are just so silly, they always fall for my tricks
This response is directed at Pastor Hunter
Sorry guys its time for a little Harsh!!
One note I would like to point out to you pastor is the judgement that is attached to this doctrine. You are a pastor and teach others and you are under a more harsh judgement because you teach others. Therefore I want you to think about something. Jesus said ” if you don’t believe I am he you will die in your sins”. Think carefully about this. It is plainly stated. If you don’t believe who he said he was you will die in your sins. What happens if you die in your sins? I can tell you one thing its not going to be good! Jesus said…
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
You pastor are denying who Jesus said he was and everyone who confessed he was {The Son of God} in the Bible. Pastor the Trinity is purely a doctrine of man and not of God whatsoever. It is not anywhere in the scriptures and never will be. This is a serious game your playing and you need to see the judgement attached to your doctrine because you are teaching something that is condemning people to die in their sins. I mean have you ever considered these scriptures?
1st John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
This scripture plainly says what the proper witness is that you are supposed to give. Son Of God!!! Now if it said he who believes that Jesus is God I would be with you but its clearly not what the whole Bible gives witness to. Please notice also the statement “he who believes not God has made him a liar”. Do you really want to call God a liar? What does the scripture say?
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Now if you understand the proper order of the God Head you know that the Holy Spirit is God not a separate entity, and it is the agent by which God works his will. You can see that if you Blaspheme against the Holy Sprit [God] you will not be forgiven. Do you really want to be glib about this? Do you really want to let Pride get in the way of the truth? Oooooooh pastor your are playing the most dangerous game there is.
THERE IS NOT ONE WITNESS OF ANYONE CONFESSING THAT JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT ONE!!
1st John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Pastor repent!!! How can it get any plainer.
You pastor are denying the Son of God. You only have forgiveness of sins if you confess that Jesus is the Son of God. The scripture says so!!
1st Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
If you teach that Jesus is God you have no mediator and are calling God a Liar! and are dead in your sins. Pastor its not me saying this the scriptures do.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Believe, Proclaim, and Confess to all and LIVE!!!
Pastor all your doing is wresting all those (few) scriptures your quoting which don’t confess that Jesus is God at all. You are blatantly ignoring what the Bible plainly states and prefer to support an evil doctrine of men.
Your professing the exact opposite of what the scriptures confess.
Pastor I pray you come into the knowledge of the truth and confess that Jesus the the Son of the Almighty God!!
Can you please give me any other explanation apart from the JWS .
Barnes’ Notes on the Bible
My Lord and my God – In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ, in his own presence and by one of his own apostles. This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons:
1. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment.
2. The language was addressed to Jesus himself – “Thomas …said unto him.”
3. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. No pious man would have allowed such language to be addressed to him. Compare Acts 14:13-15; Revelation 22:8-9.
4. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? It was this declaration, and this only. If this was a mere exclamation of surprise, what proof was it that Thomas believed? Before this he doubted. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God.
5. If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness, and the Saviour would not have commended him for taking the name of the Lord his God in vain. The passage proves, therefore, that it is proper to apply to Christ the name Lord and God, and thus accords with what John affirmed in John 1:1, and which is established throughout this gospel.
As far as Thomas that is not an identity scripture it is about believing Jesus was alive and had been resurrected.
St. John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
St. John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
St. John 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
They were all glad that he was alive. God cannot die. Its ridiculous. If they knew it was God they would not be amazed because they all know God cannot die. Its all about Gods anointed being alive. His Son…..NOT GOD. THINK!!!!
St. John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. This is why he doesn’t believe he is alive.
St. John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. He said he would not believe that he was alive.
St. John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
St. John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
St. John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
St. John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Thomas didn’t believe Jesus was alive. That is what the whole conversation is about.
As you can see it is not for the purpose to say he is the Almighty God it is to show Thomas that Jesus was really resurrected and alive again. People are wresting that scripture. There is not one witness or confession that is said that Jesus is God. Jesus did not say yes you are correct I am God. No one ever did. That is never said in scripture. The trinity is no where in scripture it is purely the doctrine of man. I think if you thought about it what would you do if you stuck your arm inside someone, what would you think? You would be amazed Its like OMG today you would be totally amazed at what you just did. And that would not be blasphemy to say that either. Thrust your arm inside someone and there right there looking at you. Your not thinking deeply enough about what happened. And if you think Thomas stuck his arm inside of the Almighty God that’s about the most loony thing I have ever heard of. Thomas is unclean and still sinful flesh. Believe me NO ONE HAS EVER STUCK THEIR HAND INSIDE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. I mean really? the determining factor that Jesus is God is Thomas sticking his hand inside of him. NO WAY!! The scriptures say that Jesus is the Son of the Almighty not the Almighty himself. He is Gods Anointed . And God does not anoint himself. Pure Looney Tunes!!
Some other points Haider
Trinity is nowhere in the bible. If Jesus is God the whole Gospel is false. God cannot die so the scripture saying Jesus died for our sins is a lie. If God died for our sins it is a false Gospel because the whole thing is a lie because God cannot die. Also Jesus is the Messiah and by what Messiah means the whole gospel is a lie. Messiah means Gods anointed. By who??? God. God does not anoint himself. The scripture says
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
It says God anointed Jesus not himself. God gave his son everything. If this scripture doesn’t mean exactly what it says the Gospel is a lie and God is a liar as well. God was with him it does not say he was God. No one in the whole bible says “Jesus is the Almighty God” Where is someone confessing this. NOWHERE!!
St. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If God didn’t give his only begotten son the Gospel is a lie. It doesn’t say God gave himself it says he gave his only begotten son. If this scripture doesn’t mean exactly what it says the whole Gospel is a lie. This is also saying you do not believe so your calling God a liar because you don’t believe he is his only begotten son. This is Satan’s trick to take away your salvation.
1st Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
As it stands you don’t have a mediator because you don’t believe this scripture. There is nothing saying God is his own mediator. There is another who is the mediator between man and God. The MAN Christ Jesus. You don’t believe so you don’t have a mediator because you don’t believe that Jesus is Gods only begotten son you think there is only one person God alone and he played all three roles which there is no scripture saying this anywhere in the bible its a fable of man not Gods Word. This is also what Christ meant when he said, “if you don’t believe I am he you will die in your sins”. The belief is that he is Gods Son not God. Do you want to die in your sins? Well believing that Jesus is God is what makes you die in your sins because you don’t believe he is Gods Son.
1st John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. Has to mean what it says
1st John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
This is where your calling God a liar because you don’t believe that Jesus is his only begotten son you think it was God himself playing the role of a man. Total lie. It says right here you don’t believe the record HE GAVE of his SON. It means exactly what it says.
1st John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Yup Eternal Life in this belief also. You MUST believe that Jesus is his Son not God himself. He is the image of his Father/God.
1st John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
If this scripture means what it says you don’t have eternal life because you are calling God a liar because you don’t believe that Jesus is his only begotten son you think it was God himself. Most Dangerous thing you can believe. This scripture says you must believe that Jesus is GODS Son not himself.
Well I can tell you have your terms mixed up or don’t understand what the beliefs of a Trinitarian are. If you believe in the trinity, you don’t believe that Jesus is the father. You identify the father and Jesus as two different beings that, along with the Holy Spirit, are in accordance and act as one. The father, son and holy spirit equal one God.
Now I believe Pastor Hunter who commented is a Unitarian. If you are a Unitarian, you believe that the Son is the Father manifested in flesh (which is what you are arguing against ). You would also believe that the holy spirit is just another manifestation of the Father, not a different entity, like Trinitarians believe (I think you would agree on that point).
I think your main argument boils down to Jesus is not God, whether it be the Unitarian view or the Trinitarian view. Is that correct?
Sentence 1: We’re mixed up.
Sentence 2: The Father isn’t the Son
Sencence 3: The Father is the Son
Sentence 5: I don’t know what a Unitarian is
Sentence 6: I really don’t understand what a Unitarian is
Brother, you should not be commenting on this thread until you study a bit more.
What?… I’m not understanding what you are saying with the “sentence #:”…
Is it that you don’t understand what I’m saying….. or what you think I’m saying…
Either way, if you think I lack knowledge, why not try to enlighten me instead of pushing me away? And can you know where I lack, if you don’t know what (or think I know)?
I haven’t even tried to argue a point yet whether to one side or another, just trying to clear up a misunderstanding that I saw with the terms used. I apologize if my wording, definitions or lack of knowledge have offended you.
Well, you started out by telling us we’re mixed up and then I replied by showing that we’re not the ones who are mixed up. Sorry for replying with sarcasm but you did tee it up, bro. Have you watched the video above? Because that’s the foundation for understanding who Yeshua is. You’ve actually mis-defined both the Trinity and Unitarian up above as well.
Yes, watched it twice actually. I like to understand people’s point of views and why they think what they think.
Can you give me your definition for of of these please? It might be that we are talking about to different things.
The Trinity, which is identified as a “mystery”, has two ultimate conclusions: Yeshua, Yahweh and the Spirit are all the same being or we have three gods. It is a doctrine that was created specifically so people who believe many different things can say they believe in the same doctrine. It gets very confusing saying Yeshua is God, or part of an impossible to comprehend God-concept, yet He prays to God repeatedly throughout scripture. I totally agree with this sentence of yours: “You identify the father and Jesus as two different beings that, along with the Holy Spirit, are in accordance and act as one.” but the following sentence negates the prior “The father, son and holy spirit equal one God.” The scriptures show a clear hierarchy between Yahweh and Yeshua and both Yahweh and Yeshua have the power to send the Spirit. So they can’t be “one god’.
A Unitarian is someone who believes that Yahweh alone is the only God and that Yeshua is His Created Son. Most who use this phrase to identify themselves believe Yeshua didn’t exist until He was born.
There are two terms that people use to say that God manifest Himself in several different manners. Those terms are Oneness or Modalist. These two beliefs believe that Yeshua is literally Yahweh being manifested in a bodily form.
I don’t pretend to understand it all or even close to it. Like you well stated, I need to study more. And hopefully you can help me out. How would you explain verses that suggest Jesus as God or at least God like?
Juan 17:5
“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.” He existed and had glory before creation…?
Philippians 2:6
“who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped” He was equal to God?…. how would this work in a hierarchy?
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The word is WITH God in the beginning and WAS God…. then when you go to verse 14.”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.” The son of God is the word? The same word that was called God a few verses before?
Isaiah 43:11
“I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.” The verse tells us God is the only savior, but yet Jesus is called savior?
There are a lot more verses like these. Others that imply He’s omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. Verses that speak about His throne with the father. Verses im sure you’ve heard and can explain for me.
God-like is the way to go. While there are verses that sound like Yeshua is God, what He is is a sheliach, which is a representative of God. A messenger or a Messiah. He had authority on earth that no prophet before every had and then at the end we see this:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
This means that somebody else held that power at some point in time!
Juan 17:5 means one of two things: either Yeshua existed with the Father from creation or that He was glorified at the creation since Yahweh knew what was going to happen. I prefer the first answer but He wasn’t fully glorified until after He was resurrected.
Phil 2:6 is answered at verse 9
Php 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
God exalted Yeshua. It doesn’t say He exalted Himself. What is meany be being equal to God is from an earlier exchange
Joh 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
By being the direct Son of God means, in Hebrew culture, that Yeshua was the rightful inheritor of all Creation. Think about the parable of the prodigal Son. That Son was due his inheritance even before his father died. The same cultural position exists in the Philippians verse.
John 1: 1-5 is called a “sod” or mystery level scripture. By reading it directly we really don’t know what it means. We have to plug in meanings to words that aren’t there to come up with the Word being Yeshua. Greek works like Spanish where the word “el” can mean “it” or “he”. The translators put it as he in English and they also capitalize “El” in the Spanish. I could write for a while on why using John 1:1-5 as a foundational teaching is really not a good idea, but put simply, we don’t actually have anywhere else to look for similar language to explain those verses. What we do have are hundreds of verses in the book of John where Yeshua can’t possibly be God, particularly John 1:18 where John writes that nobody has ever seen God. Thousands of people saw Yeshua.
Isaiah 43:11 Means that only Yahweh is the ultimate saviour. That doesn’t mean He can’t use agents for this task. The word behind that in Hebrew is yashaw which is also translated as “Deliverer”. If you look up the word “deliverer” in an English bible, you will see that it applies to people as well as Yahweh Himself. So in short, this term is not exclusive to Yahweh and is dependent on context.
Now I’ve played a little defense. Please look at the salutations and closings of every letter of Paul. In every case you will see that Paul regards Yeshua as the Son of God, being sent by God, and being anointed by God. At no point does Paul say “Yeshua, God on earth” or any such thing. John 3:16, 17 shows that God sent Yeshua in His own words. There’s your hierarchy, brother!
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Ok so it’s a lot to answer. Good thing I didn’t use more verses lol. I’ll try to cut it short.
John 17:5 He was fully glorified before when he was with the father in the beginning. That’s why He says “the glory that I had”. The power, authority, glory…. .it was all given back to him. He didn’t have it any more because of the next point…
Phil 2:6 it tells us that being equal to God was not something he held on to so in the next 2 verses 7 “but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;” 8 “and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.” We see He emptied himself of all that He had and becomes a servant. No longer equal to God, but obedient.
John 5:18 implies that if God is his father, then He is equal to God correct? So do you see him as equal to God based on john 5:18?
John 1:1 ok I want to better understand your point here. Is your language objection with verse 1 or all 5 of the first verses? Do you suggest the verses shouldn’t be used?
Enrique, you only replied to my responses and not to the study assignment. Did you have a chance to read the first few lines and last few lines of each letter of Paul? In it, he tells us exactly who Yeshua is and it’s not God, my brother. Please get back to me when you’ve done that.
That jesus is lord. ΚΥΡΙΟΣ….
So is Moses. And a bunch of other people in the Bible. What’s your point? And did you do the reading yet?
Can I ask another question?? I’m trying to understand how the devil being kicked out of heaven gave him reign over mankind that does not believe in christ. Did god give him the power to do so?
God created him right? God gave him his power and he was the most powerful and glorious angel before his fall. But….We don’t know what Satan’s boundaries are for sure. We don’t know exactly what he is allowed to do and what he is not allowed to do. We only have glimpses in scripture of what he is allowed to do. We know in Job he tells God he roams up and down the earth, to and fro. For what purpose? Scripture says he roams around like a roaring Lion SEEKING whom he may DEVOUR!!. VERY SCARY! There is no scripture that says he reigns over mankind that does not believe in Christ. People who believe in Christ are subject to the same temptations as anyone else. In fact I think they are going to be attacked more than people who do not know Christ. Satan is always resisting them because he does not want the Gospel of Christ to spread. Scripture does say he is the God of this world but not as a replacement of God just that he is allowed to tempt and deceive the nations and also he is able to give things of the world to whom he will. People who work HIS will are given the things of this world. Fame, Money, and all the other lusts of the flesh and the pride of life. Scripture says he will leave you if you resist his will. Very True! I have seen it and experienced it. Scripture also says he is not allowed to tempt you more than you can bear! He and his minions are allowed to dwell in your flesh or visit you and try to upload thoughts that are not under the Lordship of Christ and try to send us down the wrong path to be enslaved to sin and become worthless for the purposes of the Kingdom of God. There are many examples of demons living inside us and also multiples of demons dwelling inside us. Demons or Satan are also allowed to inflict sickness upon us also. Satan reigns over those he can enslave to sin. That is his goal to steal, to kill, and to destroy. Satan was given power when Adam and Eve were deceived in Eden when they had every blessing of God. but they were tempted by Satan and gave in to the temptation. Then the earth changed. Ever since then Satan has been roaming about the earth and trying to work all his evil over everyone! and I mean everyone! But also ever since then God has been working his salvation with those who hear his word and obey and follow after his will. I don’t know if this helps but this is my opinion.
WOW finally , a person that thought the exact way ,almost verbatim ,word-for-word ,that’s been troubling me so long they’re ,the Holy Trinity never ever sat right with me. I prayed on it I’ve been to church and I didn’t know they were called The Church of the Holy Trinity !!! I just knew it was Christian and as soon as I heard Holy Trinity I got up and walked out not because I’m so full of wisdom and I’m a smart guy because I’m not and when people claim that I am , I say no no I’m not it is the HOLY SPIRIT , given me the discernment !! thank the Lord , I thank the MOST HIGH. I’ve seen so much proof but it wasn’t in Scripture I’ve seen this 666 Holy Trinity symbol on everything from The Craft to the book Charmed to all the tattoos of the Holy Trinity in intertwined 666 the Pope’s hat 666 Babylon of the Sun worshipers on his hat but I always said if there is a Holy Trinity then who is the mediator ?? And why know ONE IS ASKING THESE QUESTIONS!!! when Christ is the mediator and you have a Holy Trinity you take the mediator away and then they say the verse ,, for me and my father are one, yes!! I understand. We say that here to ! we are who our father is because we’re born of him we are who our father is CUZ WE COME FROM HIS SEED and the Holy Spirit is telling me that’s what yahshua mint God bless thanks if you read.We ARE GRAFTED IN (( I HAVE OTHER SHEEP FROM ANOTHER FOLD!!!)) “” THE GENTELS!!!!!!!! US! AMEN !
I to gave up xmas , EASTER, allllll man made ( TRADIDTION witch is 666 in HEBREW mans TRADIDTION send us to HELL AND I TO STUDY AND SAID ( WE ARE BREAKING THE 4TH COMAND , THATS WHY GOD SAID AND REMEMBER TO KEETHE SABBATH CUZ HE KNEW WE WOULD FOGET!!!! Sun day is SUN WORSHIP DAY…GOD BLESS GREAT SITE …. finally the truth explained to the point where they cannot debated and I’m tired of debating whoever said debating is healthy never watched a presidential debate while at the end of the debate the two candidates are ready to kill and choke each other or never watch C-SPAN debating is not healthy it divides in causes hate
I just have one question though can somebody explain Genesis quote and with God was the word and the word became flesh I know that’s Jesus real name the word blue letter logos that’s the only thing the trinitarians keep bringing up and so their main argument that God and Jesus are one and they’re both gods because and with them was the word and the Word was God. Can somebody please spoon feed me LOL
Hi John,
Glad you found the most popular non-Trinitarian site on the internet – all by the power of the Holy Spirit!
John 1: 1-5 is what’s referred to as a “sod” level scripture. That means is a mystery. That language does not appear anywhere else in scripture so we can’t decipher it with any confidence. When interpreting scripture, you never start with a sod. You always have to start with plain scripture. It’s a shame that the Christian world has decided to make this rather cryptic set of verses the foundation for the identity of the Messiah. We know that it can’t mean Yeshua is actually Yahweh because verse 18 states, plainly, that nobody has ever seen God. And we know that John chose the word “WORD” instead of “LAW” on purpose because he also uses the word “LAW” in the chapter.
John says the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us. Paul says Yeshua is the firstborn of all creation. Genesis records that Elohim SPOKE everything into existence. I put those three things together and come up with Yeshua being the first thing created, i.e., the WORD. But this is an interpretation so we don’t set foundations on interpretations. And not everybody at our assembly sees it this way.
We have a page dedicated to the Son of God at our assembly’s website. You should check it out and maybe sign up to get our weekly-ish emails of teachings and such. Thanks for all the comments and I’m glad you found this site! https://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/
Christ is God’s Firstborn. That’s not “creation” that’s “procreation!”
If a word is a thought expressed then Christ is the very Thought of God expressed. The Bible states, “As a man thinks in his heart, so is he!” Thus God’s Thought (Logos) is Him. And when He expressed His Thought in eternity past He was expressing Himself. Thus Christ, the Word, is God the Father’s self-expression! This is how His Word could be WITH (pros) Him and at the same time BE Him. The distinction is not that of two divine persons but of the invisibleness of the Father and the splendor & glory of the visibleness of the Son. Another distinction is that the Father was in His Son creating everything. Christ was the image, form and visible splendor of God’s glory.
Wow. It sounds like a lot of you are trying to understand God without asking Him. If you don’t understand Him: ask Him, get off of theological discussions, and get your answers from no one other than God (read the Bible, not the WatchTower’s bible, not the Catholic bible, not the Mormon bible, etc.). It may take a while or no time at all but He will answer you.
Thanks for the comment and looks like reading through the thread. Do you have a specific comment about the original article?
I’ve always understood the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in him bodily- that is Jesus Christ spirit is fully the omnipresent, omnipotent, One God. The “Son of Man” – that is the flesh – died and was able to die when he cried My God My God why hast thou forsaken me- as the immoral / One God (had then) left the flesh. Jesus is the revealed name of God as shown to us in the New Testament, Jesus is the identity of God/ face of God. A name has always been the identifier of someone throughout biblical times. Also, I’ve understood we cannot literally put body parts on a spirit- the bible is talking in metaphor / figurative language for understanding (but some who take it literal end up confused). e.g. we associate hearing with the ear, God does not have literal ears to hear us but scripture describes it that way for us to better understand. When someone sits down, in biblical times this is figurative for something being finished/ complete. Jesus did not literally sit down by Sr. God (so to speak), the earthly work of the man Christ Jesus (Son of Man) had been completed – that is reconciliation. “I and farther ARE one” – not three in one (which is the definition of he word Triune that came about in the 1600’s). Also note that Jesus is the name above every name – thus all others are below it, so they are not equal. Another good reason to baptize in Jesus name (like the apostles did, as Jesus had revealed/opened their minds (Luke 24) to them his word/ its meaning). Jesus said he came in his father’s name, the holy spirit would come in his name – the apostles fully understood scripture- including the meaning of Matthew 28:19 when they baptized – the name of God is Jesus. The flesh prayed to the God/ Spirit. We cannot attribute the flesh and the spirit being two different persons, nor one god speaking to another god. Jesus is the express image of the person of God – per scripture (and person is singular in said scripture not leaving room for three persons). Per 2 Cor 4: 6 – we can now understand God and His glory because He revealed himself in the form of man (God was manifest in the flesh to use a biblical term, that is shown to us, revealed to us).
Thanks for the comment, Robert! We have a page at our congregation’s site devoted to Son of God messages. It’s really important to differentiate the Son of God from God because that’s the actual dividing line for salvation. So if the Son was not really the Son, but a manifestation of the Father pretending to be the Son, then we would have an enormous amount of scriptures that don’t make any sense. Here are a couple:
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
(Act 7:54-56)
Here. Stephen is full of the Spirit, is also not God, and does literally see Yeshua (Jesus) standing at the right hand of God. That means there’s no way for Yeshua to be God and for these verses to be true.
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
(1Ti 2:5-6)
Here, Paul attests to the same. Yeshua is between us and God (Yahweh). That’s not figurative speech because Yeshua is the greater Moses. Moses interceded for man here on earth, then the sons of Aaron took that mantle. When Yeshua ascended after His death, he then became the ultimate Mediator. This is crucial for salvation. Here’s the link to our Son of God page if you’re interested. https://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/
Please elaborate on baptism; is it to be administered in Jesus name (if at all) and if so why and if not, why not. What does your faith teach about the name of Jesus being above every name especially in regards to the emphasis, it appears, to your faith and the name Yahweh.
The Bible shows that everybody was baptized in the Name of Yeshua, so we baptize in the Name of Yeshua.
Yeshua is what Jesus was called when He was alive and referred to for hundreds of years after. His Name in Hebrew means “salvation” so when the Bible says that there is no other name which men can be saved, it’s actually a redundant statement.
Yahweh is the Name of the Creator of the universe. It means “self existent one” or “one who exists”. It’s represented as only consonants as YHVH. This is who Yeshua prayed to and who said “this is My Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:8-11)
Here, Paul tells us that Yahweh (God) bestowed the name Yeshua (Jesus) onto His Son. The Son being clearly a separate being than God here again.
The LORD has bared His holy arm In the sight of all the nations, That all the ends of the earth may see The salvation of our God.
(Isa 52:10)
If we plug in the real Names of Yahweh and Yeshua in this verse, it shows how it aligns with the citations of Paul, Acts, and so on. The LORD = YHVH, the word salvation = Yeshua, and the word God = Elohim but is referring back to Yahweh in this sentence.
“Yahweh has bared His holy arm (presumably Yeshua) in the sight of all the nations (presumably us), that all the ends of the earth may see the Yeshua of our God”. This is indeed what happened after the crucifixion as the knowledge of the Son of God went forth into the nations from Zion. It is why salvation is found in no other Name than Yeshua, the Son of God.
Thank you …your patience is appreciated.
as a question: ..with (the name) Yeshua being above / more exalted than (the name) Yahweh? (according to your faith and the bible?)
The Name YHVH is unique to only YHVH so no, Yeshua’s Name is not more exalted than Yahweh’s Name. Paul is not saying that Yahweh is going to bow to Yeshua. Just like how “all things have been put into subjection” to Yeshua doesn’t actually include the Creator of the universe, who is the one to put all things in subjection to Yeshua.
Baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost = the Lord Jesus Christ=
God (Lord) Jesus (Son) Christ (Holy Ghost or Spirit)
Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
AMEN and AMEN!
To be clear- the bible clearly states the name of Jesus (Yeshua) is the name above every name but this does not include the name YHVH because it is unique …or perhaps because YHVH gave the name Yeshua. The Saul name change to Paul, Abram to Abraham, etc. pattern in the bible. (divinely given, divinely changed/updated) is not relevant in the YHVH Yeshua names.
“Yeshua’s” real name in Hebrew was “Yehoshua.” Yeho is God’s name YHVH with the final “H” being replaced with a compounding word “Yasha” or “Hoshea” meaning salvation. The full meaning is The LORD (YHVH) is Salvation. This was a fairly common name in Israel; a name we’d all be familiar with since it’s what we English know as Joshua! Christ’s name “Yehoshua” was not exalted above the name YHVH because it includes it. It is exalted above every other name in heaven and earth only because it belonged to the Son of God who died and rose again and ascended into the Heaven of heavens where no other human has ever gone. This particular “Jesus” or “Yehoshua” is both Lord and Christ (Messiah). The Early Church never baptized using the phrase, “In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” But neither did they baptize stating, “in the name of Jesus!” The record shows they used the elevated name of Yeshua and baptized proclaiming, “In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ” or “Adonai Yehoshua Mashiach” in Hebrew. In Greek it would have been Kyriou Yēsou Christou.
To be clear when scripture plainly states the name Jesus (Yeshua) is the name above every name, it is not relevant to the name YHVH (as the name YHVH is unique …or perhaps becuase YHVH gave the name Yeshua). The pattern in the bible of name change/update such as Saul to Paul, Abram to Abraham is irrelevant precedence to YHVH Yeshua names.
You keep quoting Philippians 2:9. It says God gave him that name therefore God is above him. God is 1 and Yeshua is number 2.
Let me ask you something. Can God lie? Jesus says that the words he speaks are not his. If Jesus is God this is a blantant lie.
Is it possible that YHVH could step into a human being?
Could He create a human being and enter that human person to serve His purposes?
Is there scripture that states He cannot, will not or did not do that?
I will just state this, that our Dear Lord and Saviour stated that He and the Father would send another comforter, and that HE, the Holy Spirit shall teach us all things:
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Without the working Power of the Holy Spirit which brings conviction of sin, and grants us Repentance, through the Blood cleanses us from our sins, and washes away the sins within our souls, upon which also we are Baptized and sealed unto the day of Redemption by Him, no one is truly Born Again.
The Holy Spirit that was in the Man Christ Jesus in fulness could not be released from Him until He died and ascended to Heaven. Ten days after He ascended Jesus released to Holy Spirit to come back to earth to believers dividing portions of this Spirit for each person. God, who once dwelt in one Man Jesus, now dwelling in many people who’s sins were washed away by Jesus’ blood. The same God, invisible, expressed in and through Christ now expressed in and through His people.
Yohanan I:1-5. In the beginning was The Word ( Yeshua ) and The Word ( Yeshua ) was with HaShem and The Word ( Yeshua ) WAS GOD. (HaShem)
He was with HaShem in The Beginning .All things were created through Him (Yeshua )
Apart from Him ( Yeshua ) not one thing was created that was created……..
Who Was and Is and Is To Come ….. Yeshua is Lord God.
At The Mikvah ( Baptisim ) of Rabbi Yeshua you have all three at the same time Father-Yeshua and The Ruach Ha Kodesh .
Water at a certain temp can be liquid ,Ice ,gas at the same time .
An egg is Shell- Yoke-and the white protien. all three in one.
Lets keep it Simple Yeshua The word existed from everlasting to Everlasting .Not a Beginning not an end as does The Father and The Ruach (Spirit ).
lets be about the business to fulfill “The Great Commission ”
Go Make Disciples , Go Bapitize , Go Teach My Law – Commandments.
Baruch HaShem B’Shem Yeshua !
Steve
Shalom Steve,
Thanks for the comment. If we switch John 1: 1-5 to Hebrew (it was written in Greek), then the Word is Debar and God is Elohim, not YVHV or haShem. The only places where we can insert YHVH in the NT is when it’s citing the Tanakh. John 1:1-5 doesn’t cite the Tanakh and there aren’t any other scriptures that sound like that. This concept of “the Word” being a buffer between YHVH and what He does is first recorded by a Jewish scholar named Philo (not scripture). When we make doctrines, particularly foundational ones, we need to use verses that are repeated themes through scripture. The biggest problem with the traditional interpretation of John 1: 1-5 is that everybody stops reading right there.
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
(Joh 1:17-18)
It’s a pretty big disconnect if Yeshua is YHVH in John 1:2 but then He’s not in verse 18.
Pointing out that some things come in three parts, the three basic states of matter, and that the Ruach, YHVH, and Yeshua were present at His baptism doesn’t really prove anything.
There are likely hundreds of verses that tell us Yeshua is not YHVH but is sent by YHVH. The Messiah is 100% subordinate to YHVH which is also established in the book of John (repeatedly). I hope you can take the time to listen to the messages linked on this page. The one called Yeshua our Mediator is a pretty good one that emphasizes whe He has to be our Mediator if the gospels be true.
Shalom,
Chris
For three persons to be so important it was not a teaching of Jesus or the Apostles- private interpretation of this being three persons is dangerous especially when the only scripture on number of persons is : Jesus is the express image of the person (singular) of God.
Then to go so far as to call out three Gods – Father God. God the Son – God Holy Ghost – then go further to say they talked with each other ( another private interpretation- of Genesis) is polytheism ANY way you look at it. Repent!